Allan

New Hamburg resident Allan Strong spent his career in the mental health sector, working within local agencies to support some of the most vulnerable people in our community. He helped start the groundbreaking Skills for Safer Living program. His mission to improve mental health resources in the community was driven by personal experiences. He spent much of his youth taking care of his mentally ill mother. Then, as an adult, Allan was diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder Type 2 and also attempted suicide several times.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Greg: Content warning. This episode includes conversation about suicidal ideations and suicide attempts. Some may find these discussions disturbing or triggering. Please make healthy decisions about whether to consume this content.

It’s no time for small talk.

Welcome to Deep Conversations with Strangers, a podcast about embracing Waterloo Region’s increasing diversity by hearing about life experiences, across social economic, cultural, and ideological perspectives.

Let’s get to know our neighbors on a deeper level. So they’re no longer strangers to us. My name is Gregory Bisch for this episode, I’m at the home of new Hamburg resident. Allan Strong. Allan spent his career in the mental health sector, working within local agencies to support some of the most vulnerable people in our community.

He helped start the groundbreaking skills for safer living program and himself [00:01:00] lives with bipolar disorder type two.

[00:01:05] Greg: welcome a to the podcast. Thank you very much for being one of my first guests, I worked with Allan me on a volunteer capacity for the K mental health association 10 years ago, Allan worked for cm HHA at that point.

And we got to know each other a bit then, but we didn’t get to know each other much in depth, Allan, as he calls it volunteered to be a Guinea pig for me. So I really, I really appreciate that. I don’t know. Allan’s life story. And so. The interview style I’ve picked for this podcast is called the life story to interview, which was developed by Dan P MC Adams at north Northwestern university.

So I’ve taken parts of that, and it’s really meant to get to know the, the person really in depth. So I thought it would be a, a good way to start. So how are you doing today?

[00:01:58] Allan: I’m doing fine. I [00:02:00] have coffee. Yeah. We brought coffee, which is great. Yeah. Life is coffee. Coffee is life. Kind of fuel up. I’m really pleased to be here.

And thank you for inviting me to be one of your first guests. I feel, I feel honored. Oh, that that’s great.

[00:02:16] Greg: And

[00:02:16] Allan: I look forward to our conversation today. So just

[00:02:19] Greg: jumping right into it, let’s say that your, your life was a novel and you’re looking at your life in the novel. You open up the, the cover and there’s the table of contents there.

What would you think if you had. About five to seven chapters, what would be kind of the, the titles of those chapters do you think?

[00:02:44] Allan: Well, I think the first chapter would be what the hell is going on. the second chapter. Okay. Now that I’ve got that figured out now what the third chapter would be. Oh, really?

Is that, so the [00:03:00] fourth chapter would be, you gotta be fucking kidding. The fifth chapter would be, it’s starting to kind of make some sense. Mm-hmm the sixth chapter was uhoh Cho. The, the sands are running out in chapter seven would be, well here I am sitting on my porch, swearing at the kids. so, okay.

That’s very

[00:03:25] Greg: good. Uh, so let’s, let’s unpack that a little bit. So, um, what the hell is going.

[00:03:32] Allan: Well, I, um, I picked that because, you know, growing up, my mom was in and out of hospital quite a bit when I was younger mm-hmm and, uh, she often thought she was Jesus. We didn’t mind that so much, but the 12 guys kept showing up for dinner.

We were a beautiful problem, you know, and that’s a joke I do with my standup, but really a lot of my growing up was, um, filtered and shaped by the experience [00:04:00] I had. With my mom’s own mental health issues. You know, my mother was, uh, back then called she was diagnosed with manic depression. Mm-hmm , which is now called bipolar mm-hmm and I’m the eldest of four kids.

Mm-hmm so lot of the formative years and growing up was, you know, learning to manage, um, mom’s experience mm-hmm , which then became our experiences, cuz oftentimes. Particular, we didn’t know what was going on and we didn’t know where to stop mm-hmm because it felt like we were walking on eggshells.

Mm-hmm , you know, in the first 10 years of life, well, mm-hmm , we were four kids, uh, and pretty active house. And, and, but, but things really shifted, uh, when mom, mom started to experience, uh, I guess the term would be psychosis, you know, The first experience I had of her [00:05:00] illness was she kept the four of us home from school for three or four days.

My father was on a, a training in the, for a new job. So he was away mm-hmm . So she had us huddled in the living room of our house at the time friend of the fireplace, you know, she’s pitching books into the fireplace and wow, burning, uh, family photos and stuff. And she’s listening to. Music and getting messages from the music and I was 10 or 11 and we’re all going, what the hell is going on here?

There must have been a lot of pressure

[00:05:33] Greg: on you. It’s the

[00:05:34] Allan: oldest. Absolutely. Yeah. And then when mom wasn’t well, it was off fell myself and my sister next to me. Yeah. um, to kind of do things like cook meals. Oh wow. And stuff

[00:05:47] Greg: like that. So when, um, and, and when you said your, your mom, uh, thought she was Jesus, you’re not, you’re not kidding.

[00:05:53] Allan: Like that’s no, I’m not the J and that, you know, I make point of that for the joke mm-hmm , but oftentimes [00:06:00] comedy is, um, is, is a very indirect way of telling truth. Right. You know, good comedy, uh, a good drama. There’s always an element of truth in that. I

[00:06:12] Greg: actually saw you the, the standup troop, but others wouldn’t know that, um, you, uh, did comedy with a troop of other, uh, people with lived mental health

[00:06:21] Allan: experience.

Stand up for mental health. Yeah, the program was developed by Debbie Grier, uh, a therapist and a comedian and a teacher in Vancouver. And David also has his own experience with depression. Mm. And for whatever reason, he said, why not teach people with mental health issues to do standup comedy? And his premise was that, um, no one would expect anyone with a mental illness to do standup comedy.

So the comedy is, um, a good way to bus, miss mm-hmm to tackle discrimination mm-hmm . And also for me, it was a good, uh, venue for me to start kind of [00:07:00] sorting out stuff. Mm. So I do, I do jokes about my mom and people think, oh, that’s funny, but it’s true though. Yeah, she did think she was Jesus.

[00:07:08] Greg: Yeah. When you were 11, um, and your, your father’s away and she’s throwing things into the fire, you’re the oldest describe a little bit more about what was that like for you at

[00:07:21] Allan: that time?

Well, it was confusing as hell mm-hmm . Were you scared or just well scared and also just really go, like, I don’t. I don’t, I don’t remember feeling like I, we were at risk or anything like that. Right. She wasn’t gonna harm us. Okay. But it was just like what the, the fuck is going on here. Mm-hmm and really not knowing.

And then the next piece I thought about how the hell am I gonna tell the kids at school about this one? Oh,

[00:07:49] Greg: wow. Yeah. And that’s the way kids think,

[00:07:52] Allan: right? Yeah, no, because I knew we pro ended up going back to school and I was like, okay, how, why were you away? So I just, you [00:08:00] know, my mom was ill mm-hmm , but it was really trying to figure and also saying, okay, let’s how are we gonna get through this?

Mm-hmm and also let’s not rock the boat. Mm-hmm and just kind of keep things steady. Mm-hmm and. Man. Wait till dad comes home. Yeah. Let’s

[00:08:18] Greg: maybe skip ahead to the next chapter now. What?

[00:08:21] Allan: Well, and that’s, that’s, you know, high school in school, it’s kinda like, okay, I got a wacko mother now, what do I do? Okay.

That’s a clinical term by the way, wacko but it really then becomes, okay. Now what, especially, you know, trying to navigate the teenage years. Yeah. It’s like now what do I do? Mm-hmm and. because her hospitalizations didn’t stop. Mm-hmm she was for a good chunk of my adolescence. She was in and at a hospital at least once a year mm-hmm and she, you know, she had some tremendous struggles.

And I wanna point out though that like a lot of folks with mental, with mental illness or mental health [00:09:00] challenges, whatever you want to. Mom wasn’t, you know, when she was not, well, she was not. Well, however, when she was, well, she was an active volunteer in the community. She did a lot of stuff. She started a retirement planning program.

Like she had a lot of skills and competencies mm-hmm and those things didn’t go away. Mm-hmm just because she was mentally ill. Oftentimes we automatically assume that once you. A mental illness, your intellectual capacity goes to hell in the hand basket. Well, that’s patently true. Mm-hmm and that’s one of the mythologies that we’re constantly struggling with.

Mm-hmm so she was a very skilled, competent, very bright, bright woman. Mm-hmm challenges such when she was not, well, she was not well mm-hmm and she had, you know, she drank a lot. She smoked a lot. So there was also the cumulative effect. Mm-hmm of, uh, all of those vitamin all of that. And also the [00:10:00] medications she was on lithium, you know, lithium.

if you don’t monitor it carefully can, uh, damage your kidneys. Mm-hmm held all, which is a very strong antipsychotic ly, which has some very pronounced side effects. Mm-hmm so some of those drugs were very, very strong mm-hmm and had some very profound side effects. Mm-hmm she had tared dyskinesia. So that’s.

Side effect from some of the medications, which can cause involuntary muscle contractions. Oh. In our case, it’s, uh, she would have muscle twitches in her face, the rolling of the tongue. Other people, I knew it could get extreme muscle rigidity, like a stiff back and stiff muscles and then yet take more meds in order to counteract that.

And then, so then you end up on a pharmaceutical

cocktail.

[00:10:47] Greg: Yeah. You’ve got five, six

[00:10:48] Allan: bottles lined up precisely. Yeah. So. You know, the impact of the medication mm-hmm, also took a profound toll on it. Yeah. You know, when I think of my own, uh, [00:11:00] history with meds, I put on about close to 70 pounds. Mm-hmm when I started on meds, I got up to almost 260 pounds.

Wow. And these are the things people don’t think about. Yeah. Another, uh, side effect I experience was, uh, tremors mm-hmm so I do a lot of public speaking mm-hmm so people would see my hands shaking. They think, well, you’re nervous. I said, no it’s because the meds, I couldn’t hold a piece of paper. Yeah. So these are some of the things that people don’t think about.

Yeah. And automatically assume that the reason why people stop taking meds is because, um, misguided, well, sometimes the impact of the medication can be just as detrimental mm-hmm as the, uh, illness itself. Yeah. So to speak.

[00:11:46] Greg: So, and now what the chapter. You’re a teenager, it’s hard enough being a teenager and you have your mother going through all this.

And, and I imagine that that would kind of leak out in different ways. Mm-hmm with your friends and stuff like that. [00:12:00] What kind of impact did that have on that part of your life?

[00:12:03] Allan: Well, I didn’t really have friends over mm-hmm that often I would spend most of my time away from out. Yeah. Like I was very active in after school activities, like drama and other things I’d go to other people’s houses.

Mm-hmm very rarely had people over to my place to hang out because quite frankly didn’t know. What was going

[00:12:21] Greg: on. Yeah. So it sounds like you’re, you had a lot of love for your mother. You had a, would you say you had a good relationship with your mother, but you never knew which version was going to show up.

Exactly.

[00:12:31] Allan: Yeah. Yeah. Are we gonna get Jesus or are we gonna get packed? Yeah. yeah. Or something else. Yeah. In there. Yeah. But, but that was it, you know, a lot of my mom’s really shaped a lot of my values and my principles. I, you know, I chose to go into this field of mental health primarily because of. Yeah. So, but it was kind of that, you know, push, pull yeah.

Type of relationship.

[00:12:57] Greg: So how would you describe the

[00:12:59] Allan: [00:13:00] relationship with your mother? Sometimes it was, it was, um, a good relationship other times. Uh, I was her confidant and I was her sidekick. Mm. I was her drinking buddy for, for a number of years. So I think in some ways the, the mother son relationship and the lines got blurred, mm-hmm quite a bit.

Yeah. Uh, she once told me I was her favorite, which really kind of was Hickey . Yeah. So I wouldn’t say it was a typical mother child relationship. Mm-hmm I became the, you know, there’s the term, the parentified child. Mm-hmm. It

[00:13:44] Greg: sounds like it was very close in some ways, but very, very stressful

[00:13:48] Allan: for you. Mm.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, I, um, when I graduated from college and then I ended up working in Toronto, I was the last kid to technically leave home, so to speak because I [00:14:00] felt some sense of responsibility. Of course. How old were you at that point? Uh, 1920. Yeah. I, I stuck around everyone else. Like when my parents separated, my dad moved to Toronto and then to Montreal mm-hmm my brother, uh, went with dad to Toronto and then to Montreal mm-hmm then my younger sister Jacqueline ended up in Montreal.

Mm-hmm my sister, Mary ended up going to school in Hamiltons then I was left holding the bag. That’s the way I felt at the, yeah. Yeah. And then I finally moved to Toronto when I was 24, 25. Yeah. But then still I would get, she would have tenants. I would get phone calls saying your mom’s doing this. Your mom’s doing that.

And eventually I just said, yeah, I’m not doing this anymore. Yeah. I’m not coming home to, you know, clean up the mess. Yeah. Because I felt I’d been cleaning up the mess for quite some time. Are we getting into O really there? Well, O really was, you know, just sort of discovering [00:15:00] that. See one of the things that I was most afraid of growing up as I’d be just like her mm-hmm and.

Little did I know it, but I was starting to drink a lot and part, you know, part of it was, I was led outta my cage mm-hmm but then shortly after she died, that’s my own, you know, exploration of the dark side. Yeah. Um, happens. So I was like, oh really? Mm-hmm oh, so this is what this is gonna be. Is it? So I first had my first hospitalization in my thirties.

Okay. And that’s kind of the O really. So how old were you when she passed away? I would’ve been about 33 34. Okay. And that’s when I first ended up in the hospital. Okay. Is it

[00:15:49] Greg: okay if I ask how she

[00:15:50] Allan: passed? Her body just said, that’s it pat? We’re done. Yeah. So the story. So in the Mennonite church, mm-hmm , we don’t have baptism.

We have [00:16:00] dedication. We’re all getting together in London. Mm-hmm for Jacob’s dedication. Mm-hmm and my mom was really excited about this because, um, it’s been a long time since we’d all been together in Jacobs, your son. Yeah. So that Sunday morning mm-hmm when I got to the church, uh, our pastor at the time pulled me into his office and.

Your life has changed. He said your mom had died, had passed because when dad went to pick dad and the others went to pick her up, oh my God. They found her and it looks like she had been sitting on her bed and just keeled over. So we figure it was either a stroke or heart attack. I know when the police officer asked us if we wanted a autopsy, I said, what’s the point mm-hmm she’s dead.

Mm-hmm so that that’s literally what happened. Mm-hmm so. It was, uh, walking into the chair and then, um, and then going directly over to her house. Yeah.

[00:16:58] Greg: Sounds like it was [00:17:00] just heart freaking at

[00:17:01] Allan: that point. Well, actually at the time it wasn’t okay. Sue thought it was kind of odd because the four of us were standing outside the house while they were, you know, packing her up.

So to. and, uh, we are joking mm-hmm and I said, that’s the way we survived. We all, the four of us have a very dark sense of humor. Mm-hmm and so we’re out there cracking jokes and she just thought it was a little odd, but I said, that’s the way we deal with stuff. Mm-hmm it was heartbreaking the following day mm-hmm

But in that moment, that was our coping strategy. Mm-hmm that we’d make jokes about mom’s craziness all the time. Mm-hmm but that’s. That’s how we got through it. Mm-hmm so,

[00:17:44] Greg: and, and you were making jokes about it earlier. Yeah. And I, I was laughing and along with you, but when I worked at this CMHA and like I’ve had my own struggles with mental health.

Yeah. Um, and anytime we talked about our own struggles, we, you make a joke of it cuz what else? Sometimes [00:18:00] that’s fighting against it. Right.

[00:18:01] Allan: Well, exactly. I’d rather be laughing and crying. Yeah. And once humor is a good release. Yeah. And also humor gives us permiss. To talk about the stuff that is unpleasant.

So then when I start, then when I ended up in hospital myself, I thought, oh, get the jokes on me. Mm-hmm so did, do

[00:18:20] Greg: you think your mother’s death kind of triggered that? Yep. Okay. Absolutely. So do, do you, um, mind taking me

[00:18:27] Allan: through that a bit? Well, I think in hindsight, when I think of what happened after mom died, it was kind for me, it was kinda like the, the, uh, the cor got popped outta the bottle.

Mm. So a lot of stuff I’ve been sitting on and just, it got released mm-hmm Pandora’s box. Yeah. And, um, that’s the best way I could think of describing it.

[00:18:51] Greg: Would it make sense to say that yeah, it’s spent your whole life thing mess and when you didn’t have that mess to clean up anymore, you didn’t even know how to clean up your own.

[00:19:00] Well, yeah, no mess.

[00:19:01] Allan: It’s. Yeah, that’s a really good way of putting it. Okay. Because that’s that, because a lot of my function, reason what I did was it was her. And at

[00:19:10] Greg: this point, you really, you didn’t have any

[00:19:13] Allan: big, I didn’t have any, I didn’t have any official diagnosis.

[00:19:16] Greg: Okay. Your career and everything was kind of based around what you’ve wrote with and your mother.

Yeah. That was those like what your life was essentially about. Mm-hmm that.

[00:19:26] Allan: Yeah, well, another way of thinking about, you know, oh, oh, oh really? But it’s also like, uh, starting over it’s mm-hmm, kind of like, all right, well, the primary focus of whatever of life had been is gone now. Now what mm-hmm or? Oh,

[00:19:41] Greg: really?

Yeah. How would you describe, like what led to the, your first, what would you call it a breakdown

[00:19:47] Allan: or? Well, it was, yeah, I just, I, I described it as, uh, just shutting down. Mm. It was weird because I’d spend all night mm-hmm pacing the house. Mm-hmm to the point where I [00:20:00] was getting next to no sleep for almost three or four months.

Oh my

[00:20:04] Greg: and this was immediately after she died.

[00:20:06] Allan: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And, uh, and then I just shut down. Mm-hmm I remember, uh, just that I’d spend days in bed. Mm-hmm up all night, but, um, yeah, I just eventually shut down. Mm. Up

[00:20:24] Greg: all night. Would you ruminate like, um,

[00:20:26] Allan: yeah, it got to the point. I thought people were in the house.

Oh, wow.

[00:20:30] Greg: Yeah. Oh, just from being sleep deprived or from the constant

[00:20:34] Allan: ordination? Both. Both. Okay. And then I also start thinking of, you know, harming myself. Mm-hmm uh, Sue. Got to the point where she would start to wonder when she got home from work, whether or not she’d find me alive or not. Mm. And then my, uh, desire to harm myself became very big mm-hmm

And then I started having these thoughts that I had been sent to save the world, but I knew did the cleanse in myself first mm-hmm and the only way I knew how to [00:21:00] cleanse, so it could do cleanse would, would buy, cutting and lift to it was pretty toxins outta. Just some pretty fucked up shit. Mm-hmm but what were you

[00:21:09] Greg: cleansing yourself from?

[00:21:10] Allan: The toxins. Okay. Whatever that was. Yeah. So, and that’s what ended up getting me ending up in the hospital because I started looking at knives and going, so did you

[00:21:21] Greg: actually cut yourself first? Okay. Um, did you want to talk about that or is that something that you’d prefer to?

[00:21:28] Allan: Well, it. It is what it is.

Mm-hmm in my mind, I needed to clean mm-hmm it was, and yeah, there was no other meaning attached to that. Mm-hmm so like you weren’t trying to die at that point. Mm, not really. Okay. But the thoughts

[00:21:47] Greg: were there. Okay. So it was, it sounds like it was a little bit of a mix between, you know, I need to cleanse myself, but if I die in the process, it’s not the worst thing in the world.

So [00:22:00] I know I’m getting into a territory where people might, might find that shocking. I don’t, uh, I, I think I told you going into this, that cuz I know suicide might come up that I’ve had suicidal ideations, a, a lock through my life.

[00:22:16] Allan: Well, and I’ve uh, I’ve had subsequent attempts. Yeah. Since then. Yeah. So how would you describe

[00:22:24] Greg: to people who.

Who might not know what it’s like to have ideations or, or want to commit suicide. What pushes someone to that? Like how would you

[00:22:38] Allan: describe that? Well, I think from. I look at it from a variety of perspectives, one personal experience, one as a clinician as well. Right? Cause a lot of my career, um, was in suicide prevention and intervention, and then also reading a lot of literature and research mm-hmm and really for me, what it boils down to is the one reason.

[00:23:00] People want to die by suicide is they want their pain to end that’s it? Yeah. You know, people often look at, well, the reason, the reason that they chose to die by because they lost their job. Mm-hmm for this happened or that happened. Those, those are things that happen, but it’s what those things mean to people.

Mm-hmm yeah. People want their pains in. They get to, they get to the point where they feel that they’re a burden. That, um, the world would be better off without them. They’re hopeless. They don’t know what to do. They feel helpless and they think this is the only option mm-hmm and it’s it’s counterintuitive because the general thinking that a lot of people have is suicide is a selfish, selfish.

I said, well, it’s the least selfish thing people do because the thinking is I’m a burden The world will be better off without me. I’m doing people of favor. Yeah. But it boils down to. I want this pain to end mm-hmm I can’t take it [00:24:00] anymore. So we’ve

[00:24:01] Greg: dealt with, you know, your, uh, teenage hoods and your early adulthood.

Um, you gotta be kidding me. Have we, have we gone through chapter four? No. Okay.

[00:24:11] Allan: Well, and the, you gotta be kidding me was kind of the reaction to, oh really? It’s are you fucking kidding? So, because, because, you know, as I said earlier, I, you know, I never wanted to have be like mom. And then at one point, my life was like, well, fuck, here I am.

Mm-hmm , you know? Yeah. I’m not as back crap. Crazy. I don’t think I’m Jesus mm-hmm . Um, but being a leaf fan, I like that is funny but, but it, it really is. That’s kind of 1967 will happen again. . I just hope it happens before I die. That’s that’s all I want. That’s all I want. Hear me world. That’s all I want.

but, um, the, um, [00:25:00] it was really this reaction. It’s like, are you kidding me? Are you really kidding me? Yeah. The very thing I never saw or wanted to happen has happened. Mm. and a lot of, and then, um, along with that was a lot of self beating up. And then I thought, oh shit, you know, I was taking a lot of medications.

I was obese. I was overweight mm-hmm and I thought, I look for God’s sakes. Mm-hmm very thing I thought would I didn’t wanna happen happen, you know? And I always thought somewhat paradoxical. So imagine I’m get taking these meds because I’m depressed. Mm-hmm , they’re supposed to help me feel better about myself.

Mm. and then in taking the meds, I put on 70 paths. Yeah. And this is supposed to help me feel better about myself. Yeah. Are you kidding me? Yeah. Um, pat Degan who is a well known writer and author and researcher in the field of mental health, uh, really captures the conundrum quite well when she says you. I take your pills.

I go to your [00:26:00] programs and I still end up in hospital 5, 6, 7 times. And we keep telling people that by doing this, you’re gonna get better. Well, and the evidence is, well, some people do, but, and some people don’t. Yeah, no matter how many times you end up in hospital, I’ve had poor four or five hospitalizations.

Mm-hmm I took the medication. I still feel like shipped mm-hmm so. You’re left as Degan describes it, you’re left in a situation as saying, well, now what do I do now? I’m fuck because I do what you tell me and it’s not working. Mm-hmm so maybe it’s up to me to figure out what will work for me. And then that’s the paradox.

That’s the conundrum. Yeah. You get to that point where it’s like, well, the traditional way ain’t working mm-hmm that? Well, so maybe I need to figure out what I need to do. Yeah. And what’s within my control. So

[00:26:53] Greg: let’s move on to chapter five. Um, and I believe you said this makes sense.

[00:26:59] Allan: [00:27:00] Well, chapter five kind of, I think if I was to think of the eras, you know, I’m moving into my fifties.

And so things are starting to make, I’m starting to feel comfortable in my own skin. Mm-hmm I can remember feeling that in my fifties and even more so now that I’m over 60 mm-hmm , it’s just like, yeah, this is who I am. Mm-hmm . And do I wanna change anything? Yeah, not really. Mm-hmm , you know, mm-hmm , it is what it is.

See this package full. This is it all its gorgeousness, but it really is getting comfortable in my own skin. Yeah. And recognizing, yeah. And I’m okay with that. I don’t feel I have anything to prove to anybody. Hmm. Right. Yeah. That’s a big one. You know, it’s like here I

[00:27:44] Greg: am. I wanted to talk a second. Both Sue, who I I’ve just met and she’s love.

[00:27:50] Allan: The nasty little woman. That is my wife. she? Who must be obeyed? Yeah. Uh, yeah,

[00:27:56] Greg: let’s be clear that she’s absolutely

[00:27:57] Allan: lovely and [00:28:00]

[00:28:00] Greg: likely puts up with a lot. And I say that lovely. Well, a lot

[00:28:03] Allan: of people who meet me have said, I wanna meet your wife. I wanna know the woman that’s put up with you this long and they they’re quite serious.

[00:28:13] Greg: Um, well, um, and I think people will get that from this is that, uh, you’re a lovely person to be around, but you, you come with a lot

[00:28:22] Allan: of energy. Well, and Sue’s my perfect foil. Mm-hmm is quite seriously. She’s she’s she’s the rock that helps keep me grounded. Mm-hmm and , she’s the person in my life who will look at me and go really.

Really, I have no desire to change her. Mm-hmm to something and same, uh, same for her. It just that we are very comfortable and we’re good friends. Mm-hmm and notwithstanding the fact she sings barbershop. I still love her. Anyway. Is that a hobby of hers? Oh, she loves music. Yeah. To me, it’s akin to [00:29:00] dragging nails across the platform.

I hate it. But it’s it’s giving space. Yeah. So, and she just, she’s very common sense and she just helps keep me grounded. Yeah. Let me tell you a story. Okay. This will describe. Okay. So my last hospitalization was after my last attempt. So I’m in the hospital. I’ve had the charcoal, I’m in a merge , you know, and she looks at me and says, if he ever do this again, mm-hmm, , I’ll revive you and kill you myself.

Sorry, this is not

[00:29:33] Greg: funny. It is. It is. Oh, we’re talking about a very serious thing, but yeah, but

[00:29:40] Allan: yeah. It’s basically her life don’t ever do this again. Yeah. Because I’ll hurt you more than you can ever hurt yourself. You’re bastard. Yeah. But, but that, that’s it, you know?

[00:29:51] Greg: And when I told my, and it sounds like that’s coming from a place of fear on her part and love and

[00:29:56] Allan: love.

Yeah. When I told, when I told my doc our [00:30:00] doctor about that, he looked at me, he says, yep. That’s what marriage will do. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:04] Greg: She, she very much knows who she’s with. And loves you fork anyway.

[00:30:11] Allan: yeah.

[00:30:13] Greg: So how has she adjusted? Cuz I imagine when you first got married was before you really knew. Yeah. Um, And so how did she adjust to all of that?

[00:30:26] Allan: Well, her adjustment was basically telling me I’m gonna do what I’m gonna do anyway. Mm-hmm and if you want to come say to a family dinner, you come, if you don’t, you don’t, I’m going anyway. Mm-hmm so she was very clear. These are, this is what I’ll accept. This is what I won’t mm-hmm and I’m not gonna stop doing what I need to do just because you’re not feeling well.

Mm-hmm, , I’ll support you. And. I need to do my stuff too. Mm-hmm so that was very clear to me that, um, she wasn’t gonna put up with any bullshit mm-hmm um,

[00:30:59] Greg: so, [00:31:00] um, you’re making sense of life as you’re getting past 50, the next chapter. So, so what is the title of the chapter? Cuz I, I didn’t quite get, well, the

[00:31:08] Allan: sands are running out.

Okay. Meaning the hourglass yeah. Metaphor for the hourglass is I’m recognizing that I’ve got. Life behind me that I do in front of me. Yeah. I’m very much aware of the fact in my family. Most of us seem to die in the mid, our mid eighties. Mm-hmm so I may have 20, 25 years left of that. I may have 10 or 15 years of good health left.

Mm-hmm and realizing, okay, what do I want to do now? Mm-hmm where do I wanna spend my time? Mm-hmm and what’s important to me. Mm-hmm and also retiring. So it’s really recognizing that yeah. Life. Starting to wind down mm-hmm and I I’m not being fatalistic or it’s just, it’s a, it’s a

[00:31:52] Greg: recognition of where you are in life.

Yeah. Um, we had one more chapter. And I’ve just got chapter seven, swearing. [00:32:00]

[00:32:00] Allan: The metaphor of me being the old guy sitting on my front porch. Yeah. Swearing. Yeah. Get off my lawn, my little bastards or get off my slab of concrete. So have we reached that point yet? Not yet. Okay. Not yet. I’m still writing the script for that one.

Yeah.

[00:32:15] Greg: Yeah. You

[00:32:15] Allan: know?

[00:32:15] Greg: Yeah. Well, you won’t wearing at me when I, I drove up this morning, even though I think I took, uh, Sue’s parking spot. Sorry about that. But, uh, well your

[00:32:23] Allan: tires may not be , but, but it’s not so much, I’m not there yet, but I’m aware that that’s coming mm-hmm, where it’s just kind of like,

[00:32:31] Greg: okay.

I feel that that you’ll be, uh, eccentric, but not in the way that you’re swearing at kids you’ll make, make fun of them and joke around with them. But, well,

[00:32:39] Allan: I already do that. .

[00:32:42] Greg: Okay. So looking back over everything, a couple things we haven’t talked about, we haven’t talked about your career at all, and I think that’s been a important part of your life, but let, let me ask it this way.

Looking back over your entire life, what would you now consider to be your [00:33:00] greatest single challenge that you’ve faced

[00:33:03] Allan: in your life? Good question. I think the biggest challenge. The thing that really drove me through my career is I wanted to make a difference. Mm-hmm . And what motivated me early is that I saw the crap, my mom went through and I said, well, I want things to change, uh, because of that and recognizing that, wanting it doesn’t guarantee it’s gonna happen.

Mm-hmm and understanding that and resolving that tension mm-hmm because the cards are. Against you mm-hmm um, when you are trying to make significant change. Cause I think that, you know, my focus has been on, you know, the mental health system and validating peer support, and then I slow the suicide intervention stuff.

Mm-hmm and trying to get things done is fucking nine. [00:34:00] I’ve gone back and I’ve looked at all the significant mental health reform policy documents since the early eighties. Mm-hmm, essentially taking a look at when I entered the field in the early eighties and where things are now, mm-hmm and taking a look at all of that.

So I’ve looked at just about every damn thing I can get my hands on and what I’ve recognized. There’s been a lot of promises. There’s been a lot of recommendations. And yet as the French would say flu songs, Lamento the more things changed. The more just stay the same. Mm-hmm , you know, I, at times wonder, are we any further ahead?

Mm-hmm , you know, we keep wanting to pour and what I keep under, what I keep seeing is we want more money, more money, more money, more money mm-hmm. And at a certain point, uh, I had to ask myself, will we ever spend enough? You know, where’s the tipping point and are we ever going to fundamentally fix the things we want fixed and to really do that, we have to [00:35:00] fundamentally change our entire system mm-hmm

And by that, I mean our socioeconomic system and the way we choose to operate socioeconomically mm-hmm creates a lot of undue, a lot of problems. Mm. We live in a cult of productivity. Mm-hmm, being constantly told to be more productive, get up earlier, do more, do more, do more. So

[00:35:24] Greg: tell people a little bit about what self-help is and what you’ve, what you did.

And then I wanna talk about some of the accomplishments

[00:35:31] Allan: that you had with self-help. Okay. Well, self-help self-help Alliance in 1993, the then NDP government, uh, funded. Projects, I would call it consumer survivor development initiative. Mm-hmm so it was funny. So for, for people who don’t know,

[00:35:47] Greg: what’s, what’s a

[00:35:48] Allan: consumer survivor, a consumer survivor, somebody who I has the lived experience of, well it’s something like us.

Mm-hmm , you know, we, we had our experiences with the mental health system mm-hmm and the [00:36:00] consumer survivor initiative was really very much to change the mental health system. Mm. Because they really wanted to encourage that the people who had most direct experience of the mental health system, because they used mm-hmm the services were to be the architects and to drive change mm-hmm

So by funding these initiatives across the problems, that was their hope. And, uh, so self-help originally started out, there was separate organizations. There was a peer program in Waterloo, Cambridge, and, uh, Guelph mm-hmm . So these were, uh, organizations that were governed and staffed by folks who identified primarily as folks who use service.

Mm-hmm this is a unique concept. Mm-hmm . Skipping through several, a few years of history self-help was really a merger of those three organizations. So self-help was [00:37:00] really meant to be, uh, you know, uh, a coming together of three self-help or peer support organizations to maximize their resources in order to do things mm-hmm differently.

Mm-hmm I was there for 17 years. Mm-hmm almost, and we had some years where we did some really, really, I think, innovative work. Mm. The two, the two projects that I were most I was most intimately involved with was one was the recovery education mm-hmm . And at that time in the early two thousands, the, uh, movers and shakers in the system thought they should focus on recovered.

Mm-hmm yeah. This whole notion of people being the architects of their own mm-hmm process. So for whatever reason, they went through. Met with, uh, Wilma Townsend who was a consultant with the Ohio government. And the first thing Ohio said, uh, wellness said, where’s your consumers. Mm-hmm so it was, here’s how [00:38:00] the system hasn’t changed.

We’re gonna do this thing. It’s gonna involve consumers, but we’re not going to talk to them bit. Okay. Yeah. Go figure. Yeah. Kathy Banet um, was the executive director. She’s my manager. We were able to cobble together some money in, um, our point, meaning Kathy and myself saying, if we are gonna do recovery education, a it needs to be driven by folks, consumers mm-hmm and it needs to be evaluated by consumers mm-hmm

So those were our two big pushes and we had some struggles in getting that off the ground. Mm-hmm but we did. So the recovery education, I had the. Unique opportunity to oversee and guide the development of a training process that every frontline staff in this system had to go through mm-hmm and it was about, and it really was about taking some time to say here’s the values and principles of recovery.

Mm-hmm how does that impact and influence your work mm-hmm and, and it was great. [00:39:00] Mm. The other project that I was involved with that really I’m quite proud of as well is the work we did around the skills for safer living program skills for safer living came into being made a volunteer at self-help who died by suicide.

Mm-hmm . He had, uh, this individual had made several attempts. And as I said, one day, we got the phone call. We knew might come, but didn’t wanna get it. Mm. and in our own grief response. And by that, um, I mean the, uh, staff and the, the members of self-help, we said, look, we wanna do something mm-hmm and 10 and Ash, who is with the suicide prevention council of Waterloo region.

Put us in touch with Yvonne Bergman’s the clinical social worker at St. Mike’s hospital. Mm-hmm and Yvonne had developed a program called the psychosocial intervention. Repeat for repeat suicide attempts. because in her role at the hospital, she discovered, uh, there was a lot of people who would [00:40:00] keep coming back.

Of course. Yeah. So we talked to Yvonne and we figured, yeah, let’s bring skills for safer living to our community. Mm-hmm. So I then became the team lead for the program mm-hmm and essentially it was building and developing and taking Yvonne’s program and adapting it and making it come to life. And it really is a harm reduction approach, and it really is helping people to a be able to find and understand their feelings of suicide, uh, suicidal behavior and understanding.

Feeling won’t kill you, but the behavior you choose to deal with that feeling just might mm-hmm . So it’s helping people identify their feelings, develop strategies to stay safer. Mm-hmm that’s it in a nutshell mm-hmm so it’s a 20 week group. And so we had to develop, um, our intake process. You know, we took what Yvonne had done in mm-hmm , uh, Toronto, we made it cut on.[00:41:00]

[00:41:00] Greg: I. Yeah. So, so tell me a little bit about how it caught

[00:41:05] Allan: on, well, I think it was word of mouth because initially,

[00:41:08] Greg: well, it was successful obviously. Like, yeah. Um, I heard one report that, you know, once this program took, like there hasn’t been a suicide among the people involved,

[00:41:20] Allan: not to my knowledge. Yeah. So, and

[00:41:22] Greg: how many, like that’s 10 years going and how many groups.

[00:41:26] Allan: I think they’re to 30.

[00:41:27] Greg: Yeah. Maybe 40 groups, 40 groups. And how many people in each group

roughly

[00:41:33] Allan: anywhere from eight to 12.

[00:41:34] Greg: So that gives you an idea that this is a high, high, high

[00:41:38] Allan: risk population. Well, the average number of attempts when I, I was a team lead with the program for almost eight years, almost the average number of attempts, people in our group made of seven mm-hmm and went north from there.

Mm. and wow. I think by that that’s yeah, by the time I left, I think we had had over 200 folks [00:42:00] through the program and we did not have anyone die by suicide that we were aware of. Mm-hmm we had one death of a group participant, but that was by natural causes. Yeah. It’s phenomenal. We’ve had people who have gone on just to flourish and to do really, really well.

Mm. and the fact the group is still going, you know, along the way, we were able to implement and develop a group for high school students. Mm-hmm and for use it it’s it’s just been phenomenal. Yeah, because first I can remember a few people looking at us saying, so you wanna take a group of people who have all made several attempts at suicide and put ’em in the same.

are you crazy? And what was the fear there? Well, the fear was Contagent mm-hmm yeah, the fear was, well, you know, the thing that made it unique, though, our approach was unique that everybody who stopped had their own personal [00:43:00] experience was suicide. Yep. Either as a family member or as an individual mm-hmm and we got feedback from group participants, we did a lot of feedback generation and saying, you know, it was really empowering and hopeful for.

Participants to know that their facilitators had been in the same place. Mm yeah. You know, and to, to sort of capture what skills was about Yvonne quoted to us something, one of her participants had said an evaluation and we heard the same thing, but this person said to Yvonne, you know, when I started this group, I was living to die.

Mm-hmm . And when I finished the group, I’m dying to live. Mm-hmm . Yeah.

[00:43:43] Greg: Yeah. So how does, how did that make you feel?

[00:43:46] Allan: Oh, I’m just I’m yeah, I’m get the feels. Yeah. As, um, as I say that, because that’s what we heard time and time again. Yeah. You know, I remembered, uh, [00:44:00] doing in a, a focus group with a, a group of university students.

So this one young man said, you. One time. I didn’t want to get outta bed. Mm-hmm now I’m dying to get outta bed and start my day. Yeah. Wow. And just hearing how impactful the group has been and how people get re-engaged with life mm-hmm and, and get re-engaged in their full human. It just it’s mind point.

Yeah.

[00:44:25] Greg: That’s something that you can really say. Yeah. Like, well, we did

[00:44:29] Allan: a, a result of your life. We did a document. We did a, a film mm-hmm a short video. And I remember the, the first 10 times showing the video, a public meeting, I couldn’t get through it. So crying. Why

[00:44:42] Greg: couldn’t you get through it? So crying?

Well, part of it was

[00:44:45] Allan: just, it was very humbling. Mm-hmm to know that, um, what we were doing was saving lies. Mm-hmm and to hear people say how much the group impacted and changed them was just mm-hmm humbling. [00:45:00]

[00:45:02] Greg: It sounds like despite all the policy and all the hurdles that you often have to go through, it was really just that human connection and being, given the resources, just to bring those consumer survivors together that

[00:45:14] Allan: well it’s yeah.

Different together to do it. It was just it’s the community. Yeah. Yeah. It was just poof. Yeah. And it’s still going. Yeah. That’s the, that’s the part that just blows me away. Yeah. It’s still, well,

[00:45:27] Greg: it, it could very well out

[00:45:28] Allan: outlive. I hope so. Mm-hmm and it was just, and to know that, you know, I was part of, part of a team that pulled that off and did that mm-hmm is just humbling.

That’s the only way I can. It’s humbling. Yeah. And, um, it’s very powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

[00:45:50] Greg: this has been a really great conversation.

[00:45:52] Allan: Oh, it’s been fabulous. I

[00:45:53] Greg: enjoyed it. Yeah. Thank you very much for agreeing to do this with me. I really. I’ve had a lot of

[00:45:59] Allan: [00:46:00] fun. Oh, good. Well, thanks for the opportunity. I’ve enjoyed it.

And here’s to more deep conversations, the best of luck with your podcast as, uh, matures develops and gets out there into the world.

[00:46:11] Greg: Thanks, Allan. I really appreciate it. Thank. I will forever be grateful to Allan for being my first interview for deep conversations with strangers. Thanks again, Allan. If you enjoyed this episode, please listen to another.

So at what point in your life did things really start to change

[00:46:33] Kathy: for you? When my first son got killed when

[00:46:36] Greg: your first son got killed. Brian.

That’s Kathy foster, her personal tragedy triggered a period of homelessness that lasted 18 years. And she spent most of that time on the streets of Waterloo region. Now she’s a resident with supportive housing of Waterloo. Listen to my interview with her as part of this first series of deep conversations with strangers. [00:47:00]

Thanks for listening. Take heart and take care.